Interview With Icebird Studios, The Team Behind Submerge

Interviewer's notes: As we were playing the game at the time and there were long periods of random chatter and silence, I have attempted to condense the interview down to the most important parts. Some transitions won't make much sense but the important information is all there, intact, in the order it was in. Questions are primarily answered by Thomas Schneider.

I recently had the chance to sit down with several members of the Icebird Studios team, who are currently working on Submerge, an underwater online RTS that is currently on Kickstarter. I asked them all about the Kickstarter and plans for the game.

Me: So I’ve played briefly but I didn’t fully understand the objective.

Schneider: That’s alright. We currently have the tournament mode and we have some other modes too, which allow you to join instantly without waiting. The positive thing about the tournament mode is that it has all units unlocked and you don’t have to spend hours unlocking units.

So maybe I can start explaining some of the main mechanics. When the tournament starts, you will have some starting resources and you will be able to buy some units. While we’re in the lobby you should check which units you want and find the best combination of units to crush the others. That’s the main goal of the game.

There’s a tricky other mechanic. The oxygen mechanic; you have an oxygen tank at the beginning and over time you will lose oxygen. You will lose if you don’t have oxygen anymore so make sure to follow the others and crush their units to gather more oxygen to survive longer.

For the resources, you go back to your base to buy more units. At the beginning, you start at a base and you can go back to base any time you want and get more units. Max cap is six units right now and you get more resources at the green spots on your minimap. Those are crystal plants you can shoot and collect the resources.

Okay so, right now it’s one squad and the primary objective is to kill your opponents’ units so that they can’t bring resources back, rather than to destroy their base?

Schneider: Yeah, that’s correct. It’s not a game that you are supposed to destroy the other bases and defend your base. It’s tricky but you will see that and get that very easily. It’s the base builder reduced to the absolute minimum. Well, right now, none. All the action takes place by fighting the others and your goal is to be the last man standing. To be the last man standing, there are two tactics to throw the others out. Either survive longer because the others don’t have oxygen anymore or you defeat all of their squads, all of their units. If that’s the case, they drop out of the tournament.

It’s always very long to explain but easy to get into it.

Lukas: So in short, just watch your oxygen so that it doesn’t run out. To fill it up, kill other units, and make sure that you don’t lose all of your units. Then you’re pretty much safe.

I see at the top that it says “+0 resources.” Is there eventually going to be a way to set up buildings that collect resources automatically or a more indefinite stream of resources?

Lukas: Right now, we don’t have any indefinite resources. But we added a mode where we have resource regeneration over time. For the tournament mode, we took that out. You can collect resources in this mode by going to the green plus signs on your map and shooting the crystal plants.

Schneider: What you can try, too, is going to the little fish icons on your minimap. These are the actual creeps so if you run out of oxygen and don’t find another player, try these.

How is the persistent world going to work?

Schneider: It’s going to work in another game mode, a mode where you can join anytime you want. That is the thing about the persistent world. You don’t have to wait for the players. You can join a running session whenever you want. The thing is we don’t have a lot of base building and stuff going on. The in-game progression that we have, together with the oxygen system, allows us to have a really stable game without being at disadvantages.

When you, I don’t know, imagine StarCraft 2. You join five minutes later, it’s not going to work. But with Submerge, it’s going to work because you don’t have to destroy the other player, their base, so you don’t have to defend your base. That allows every player to win whenever he wants. The persistent world will allow lots of different things. When you join a map, there will be points on the map that were not there before because players were playing before you. You will run over leftover oxygen. You will run over neutral creeps that were not there before.

Wolo: I think compared to a Counter-Strike server, it’s where the map is running, you can join whenever you want, you can join a team, and start a session. It’s much the same like for a StarCraft game.

Okay, so the persistent world will be the same as the tournament mode, only with a larger map, and drop-in, drop-out?

Wolo: Yes, that is correct and the players form the server as long as it is running.

Schneider: Right now, we had to restart the server in order to play again but in the persistent world, you wouldn’t have that issue because, after dying, you could just join again.

Your stretch goals are based on social media rather than extra funding goals. Is this all factored into the overall budget?

Schneider: That’s another thing. We have stretch goals too, like funding stretch goals. What we have for the achievements, I guess you’re talking about, is just additional achievements. Like, really additional. If people follow us, if people like us, if people share us, they like the game and support us, then we can see that and we want to show that and give something back.

These achievements that we can reach via shares and social impact, it’s not complete features. It’s more like some small, nice things. They’re really nice to have in the game but are not worth a funding stretch goal. So we thought it might be a nice thing to give them when people share us and like us, and share us, and show us their love.

So they are something that’s not going to impact development at all?

Schneider: No, they are really small things. We have some nice things for our aquarium we have here that we want to fill up with the community. Like if we reach another achievement, we will give a very special fish. It’s really small things and nice to have for the game, too.

And it’s all calculated so it’s not going to disturb the project development and such.

So, in the deathmatch mode, you won’t have all the units unlocked from the start. If you look in the tech tree in the menu, you can see all of your unlocked units. You start with five and you can unlock the rest by playing the game.

How many units are planned?

Schneider: We already have ten and, with the Kickstarter, with the right stretch goals, we plan to have another ten. Then, in further development, we are going to integrate more and more.

So it’s possible to survive with the starting five units?

Schneider: [laughs] Yes, it’s possible. It’s not that the starting units are weaker, you just have less units you can choose from. They are not better later.

Wolo: There are strategies and technical approaches to deal with enemies. So there are definitely a few possibilities to do well on here.

Schneider: What we want to reach with that is something like mechanics, you know, from Hearthstone or Magic the Gathering where you can have your deck of units built of more units. Well, the more cards you have, the more units that are unlocked in this mode, the bigger the pool you can choose from.

The mode we played before was the gamescom tournament mode. We had it on stage with different players and prizes and stuff.

So how does earning currency to unlock units work? Is it like a set amount based on how well you do?

Schneider: Yeah, it’s going to be that plus the resources you earn in the game. It’s how long you survive plus how many resources you were able to collect. It’s going to be your resources you have in your metagame that are used to unlock units and upgrade your units.

What is planned, you can see that in the tech tree. You can have different abilities for one unit, different specializations, stuff like that.

I get this question a lot: “if you upgrade your units, they will be stronger, so, isn’t that unfair for other players that did not upgrade them?” The answer to that is it is not unfair because upgrading units will increase their costs, too, in the game. So you will have to decide, “do I want the starter units that I can start with or do I want a unit like the ‘terminator’ that we have right now that I have to save the resources for the mid or late game?”

Once you’ve upgraded them, will you be able to choose whether or not the upgrades are carried into the game so that you can choose whether or not you want to use the base unit or the upgraded unit?

Schneider: Yes. You have the tech tree and the technologies that you’ve unlocked. For each unit, you will be able to build that unit and choose what upgrades you want to take with it. We can have different unit instances. One unit with a lot of upgrades and one very basic unit.

Another thing, oxygen loss increases as time goes on. So you will find yourself collecting more and more resources the more you battle.

I realized I missed some of the simple questions. How many people are on the team and how long have you been working on it?

Schneider: We are 13 developers here. For this version, we’ve only been working on it four months. We had some prototypes before and we started development for concepts and prototypes. For this version, because we switched to Unreal Engine 4, we’re at four months.

Quite solid for four months.

Wolo: It had to be because of gamescom. There was the stage, there were the people on the stage and there, it is impossible for the developer to give a version to them and then it crashes or something like that.

What do you think inspired this exact game, the mix between real-time tactical gameplay and the progression we see in games like World of Tanks?

Schneider: The initial thought was, we were playing Dota, LoL, stuff like that, and we were always waiting in the lobby. Our thinking was “can we make a strategy game or a MOBA or a game of that genre where we don’t have to wait, or the game is not screwed when players leave during the game session?” That brought us pretty much to different prototypes and different versions of the game and now we have what you see. That’s where we got our inspiration, from that problem we saw.

What inspired the underwater setting?

Schneider: First of all, we had the prototype and we had the underwater setting in this prototype for no special reason. We loved it. It’s not seen a lot in the RTS genre or other games, and we didn’t want to go with a genre like space again, so we kept it. We tried different moods and different settings like lighting and stuff. In the end, we decided to keep it. It looks awesome. We can do so much with the setting. We can implement the environment as we want. The setting, it supports the pressure that you feel. It just fits.

Since you guys have investors outside of the Kickstarter that might be contributing, and people have been wary of that in recent times, I wanted to ask, how important is the Kickstarter?

Schneider: For us, the Kickstarter is like, we want to prove ourselves that people like our concept, the game behind it. That’s the most important part about it for us. You can see that our funding goal is not that high. It’s going to cost more, as we say in our Kickstarter, to make this game, so we didn’t set our focus on the money for it. We set the focus on the concept. We are trying to make people like the game so we can prove to ourselves that it’s worth it to invest ourselves into this game.

For us, it’s not just like a game that came up and will go again. This is the project that we really want to do. This is the project that we think is worth it to be developed and worth it to be played by other players.

If the Kickstarter fails, we will say “why did it fail? Did people not like it? What are the reasons?” We will do everything to develop this game and see if there are viable reasons to do so.

It’s not a thing just depending on Kickstarter and how well it goes. It’s depending on a lot more. This project has a lot of emotions in it from ourselves and we want it. We really want this game. And if the Kickstarter should fail and people come to us and say “you have to improve this or that” then we are going to improve it.

If it does happen to fail, do you think you will return to Kickstarter at a later date or will you mostly try to seek outside investments?

Schneider: I think maybe we will try again, maybe another strategy. We will try to see why we failed or what was the reason behind it. We got quite a lot of feedback in the campaign. We were asking everyone personally how they liked the campaign and what they would see to be improved. What is the best and worst thing about the campaign and Submerge the game. We will consider all of that and I’m sure it’s possible that we will come back then.

It’s our first project on Kickstarter so we don’t have any managing company behind it. We’re doing it all by ourselves. So there might be some issues with it and we’re going to find the reasons.

The single-player campaign, what story is that going to follow?

Schneider: It’s going to follow the story of you being a commander, pretty new to the business—the underwater mining, underwater squads. You’re new to this world and you don’t know a lot about it. You’re sent on an expedition and that’s your first steps. You will have some mentors with you. You’re pretty much on your own, except for these mentors, and you have to build up everything from scratch. You will start with not a lot of units, and will unlock them in the single-player campaign and explore what this world is about and how it works and how the different companies work there and what the deep sea is like.

An interesting point in the story is the sea creatures. You will follow the story of how the sea creatures came to be and how they came to fight against you and why you have to fight against them and why there is so much competition between the humans. Why are they not allied? So you’re going to explore the background story of the universe in the single-player campaign.

So there’s going to be a bit more than just preparing you for the multiplayer portion?

Schneider: Yes, we are definitely going to have something like a single-player tutorial that is going to prepare you but our goal is really to have a little more than just that.

We really want the player to experience the universe and experience how things are set up, how the companies behind the manufacturers work, and life in this universe. That’s our goal with the single-player campaign.

Because in multiplayer games, like in LoL or Dota, what is the story background behind it? I’m sure there’s something but honestly, I have no clue what the story is. So we want to fix that.

So are you aiming to compete directly with games like LoL or Dota, or are you aiming to compete more with the RTS genre?

Schneider: I think it’s a mix of both. At gamescom last week, we saw that a lot of LoL and Dota players really appreciate the game and can get into it fast. Maybe with RTS, the hardest challenge we have is not having base building. But we are pretty much a mix between both genres. I’m sure we are going to have players of both genres.

It’s not like we are going to say we are a direct competitor of LoL or Dota. We have unique mechanics. We have a unique game. That’s something that I think is the most value for the player.

Do you have any plans to implement leagues and eSport-type features?

Schneider: Yeah, we began with a tournament mode and we saw at gamescom that players really like to have these competitions. We are definitely following that.

So how was gamescom for you?

Schneider: It was amazing. It was great. Maybe Lukas can say something about it, you were at the booth, you were commentating the tournament.

Lukas: Yeah, I was at the booth and telling the players how the game works. Most of the players, especially League of Legends players, really liked it. When they were in small groups, they really spread to our Submerge domes. We had ten PCs running there in multiplayer and deathmatch mode. We had a tournament or two every day on the big screen.

Yeah, it was great. We had three pro players that played with us and a few prizes and yeah.

Schneider: I followed the gamescom tournaments in the livestream and it was really great. I didn’t expect that. It was really great to see how players react to your game and how they get the mechanics so fast and how they try to make up the best tactics. It was really engaging for all the players, which was really nice.

Lukas: Yeah, we also had a Quake World Championship winner there who played with us and the booth was sponsored by TeamSpeak and Overwolf. We had a few great shows with giveaways. It was simply awesome.

Schneider: Some of us are tired after gamescom but it was definitely worth it. It was so nice.

I meant to ask because I can’t tell. Is this one map, and it’s placing me in different areas, and I haven’t gotten used to it yet or is it handcrafted?

Schneider: It’s not randomized at all. It’s a handcrafted map. I received that feedback. The beginning, two or three matches, well, you do have to get used to it. But there is structure to it. In a few matches, you will find out. It’s all handcrafted.

And maybe you recognize that there are no hard borders to the map. We don’t need it because nobody goes there. This map is for ten players already and we will expand it to 16 players. We will resize the map for more players.

So you are planning for more than 16 players eventually?

Schneider: We had some performance tests and I think sixteen players is what we can promise right now or is what we want to achieve. I don’t want to promise any more. If it’s possible and it gives the game something, then sure, we’re going to do that. But if the experience doesn’t increase or there will be performance problems, then we would like to keep it with 16 players. I mean, 16 players is already a lot and it’s resulting in massive battles. Right now, we have 6 players and sometimes we have four or five player battles. That’s huge. That’s immense. So with 16, I think we have a number that is quite good.

I saw that some of the achievements mentioned extra maps. How many maps are planned for launch? That’s one thing I’ve noticed with a lot of online games. They come with an extremely small amount of maps recently.

Schneider: Yeah, that’s true. The thing is with our maps, it does not depend so much on how many we have because the game’s different by when do you join or how many players are there. If you’re on the map with 5 players instead of ten or 5 players on the left side instead of the right side, then you have the variety that you need.

In the beginning, in the base goal of the Kickstarter, we will have one polished map for sixteen players and, with the stretch goals, we are going to add more maps and more interesting spots during development. It’s not a fixed number because you can always add more. Maybe it will make sense to have different maps for different modes that we have. That’s something that we will have to figure out. It will result in a number of maps that just makes sense, to start.

I noticed that one of the “ultimate” achievements that you can unlock involves major DLC. Is that going to expand the single-player content, too, or just unit selection and maps and all that?

Schneider: I’m pretty sure we’re going to do both. You expect as a player that the single-player campaign, if there is one, that you have to extend the single-player and it’s definitely coming.

And what we want to add to the game, which I think will have a really good impact on the game, is a co-op mode, so that you can play the game together. Right now, it’s a free-for-all, no co-ops, no LIs. It’s something that we’ve planned, and it’s pretty much on a high priority that we have that or that we design it, just to be able to play with your friends or to team up with your friends for a competition with other players. It’s something on our priority list that we’re talking about a lot and we want to have polished and designed.

Will it be co-op versus AI or co-op versus players?

Schneider: There are two versions that we are discussing. One is a team-based mode where you have different teams. It is the game that you play right now but with the possibility to team up temporarily with the other players. If there is a player that is very strong and you cannot do something, you can team up with someone and play together with them.

Lukas: Yeah, at gamescom, we always had ten players playing on the computers in our two domes, which also was cooler to have a lot of players to fight against.

Schneider: Yeah, the experience of the game really depends on the multiplayer. If you play with two players, the experience just isn’t as good.

Considering you got this much of the game done in four months, how long do you expect the rest of the game to take?

Schneider: Right now, we expect to take until the fourth quarter of 2016, so about November. That all depends on our funds, too, but that’s pretty much our goal.

It’s one thing to be feature complete and a completely different thing to have them polished. As you can see, we can do a lot to improve the single features that we already have. Features are still missing, so that explains why we would take until November of next year.

What is the planned business model?

Schneider: The business model is going to be paid. Well, pay once and play.

We were thinking about free-to-play, actually, but we received a lot of feedback from our community that we have but that’s just not what the community wants with our game. It’s maybe working with, like, Dota, for a huge company behind it and marketing behind it and whatever, but for us it’s not possible to get funded, to be sustainable with free-to-play without giving players any advantages in the game. That’s something we don’t want. We decided against making it some kind of advantage, pay-to-win, because it’s not what we imagined for Submerge. We want every player to have the same chance and to have the same progression.

And the definition of pay-to-win is also changing, and a lot of people are starting to see even paying for convenience as pay-to-win.

Schneider: Yeah, that’s true. We depend a lot off of our community and what feedback they give, so why not listen?

Also, your units, the movement speed is averaged.

Considering you are using Unreal Engine 4 and that’s cross-platform, would you ever consider porting to consoles or are you going to stay PC/Mac/Linux?

Schneider: What we desire, I think, is to have PC, Linux, and Mac. Well, technical details, do we have them?

Lukas: Yes, for consoles, it depends more or less on the partners we get later. It’s not as easy for us to go on consoles as for some bigger developers. So we need to talk to Microsoft or Sony to get something done on consoles.

It’s more or less, it’s like an RTS game, it’s not that easy to do with a gamepad. It could work, actually, we’ve already thought about that, how the controls could work. But yeah, it depends on the partners in the end.

The spectator mode is controllable with a controller. It’s working pretty nice.

Yeah, I was just thinking that it’s a lot simpler control wise because of not having the base building aspect, and it seems that it could work, at least theoretically.

Schneider: Yeah, that’s true. That’s why we thought about it. As you said, no base building. Plus, we have mechanics that allow you to not do as much micromanagement because everything depends on your squad and it might work. We have a concept for it but didn’t have time to prove the concept so we might do that in the future.

But to be honest, it’s not a top priority. I think we should focus on the features that we have right now. It’s a lot of features and we want to have them polished. Before we focus on more features, we want to focus on the features we have first. Have them really good instead of having thousands of features and none of them working well.

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Submerge is currently on Kickstarter and is at $24,610 out of a $60,970 goal with 11 days left. More information can be found on the official site.